I guess I imagined it as just a back-and-forth posting thing, since our comments were getting so long and complex they were basically posts in themselves (evidenced by your actual new post, ha). If you want to set down any particular ground rules ahead of time, you certainly can feel free.

As for a blog “debate,” I might be up for such a thing, but how would it work exactly? I’ve added your blog to my Google reader. The only thing is that, to be totally honest, I fear I won’t be able to post often enough to make the discussion work. I wouldn’t want to look like I’m dropping issues or that I’m not interested in the debate.

Thanks

You know, as our responses grow in length and arguments start to branch out into different ideas… I was thinking, if you’d be interested in a back-and-forth sort of “debate” between our blogs, I’d be up for it. Let me know what you think — either here, or by email (you’ve got it from my comments).

At any rate, I think my thoughts on the subject have become a bit broader, and probably deserve their own posting, which I will get to when I am less tired! So if you’re still checking back later, we can press on (if you are so inclined). Thanks.

Okay, I think I buy your general interpretation, when you say

the call to be separate and distinct doesn’t mean “don’t talk to your atheist friends,” but it may mean “don’t participate with them in a sinful activity just to get along.” I believe that being separate means to live the Christian life even when it’s not comfortable, when it requires you to take a stand or violate a social norm – to not merely blend in with the crowd, to get along merely for the sake of getting along.

Perhaps the gray area is around what constitutes “sinful activity.” I don’t think that the 2 John passage should be so narrowly interpreted — or even, is that narrowly interpreted by you. After all, I have “gone out into the world” to the extent that I go to work each day, talk to people and participate in social activities, am not a shut-in. Is that not what it means to go out into the world? Also, I deny Jesus’s divinity and am a “deceiver” in that I am an “out” atheist. Not to literally everyone I meet, but if engaged by friends in a friendly conversation, I’m happy to talk about my nonbelief and my reasons for it, and I’ve also been a fairly active participant in the online atheist community where I’m more forward about promoting atheism over religious belief. I don’t see why 2 John doesn’t apply to me, ostensibly one of the “random folks” you referred to. “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching” — yes, I definitely fall into that category of people. So… maybe Christians shouldn’t befriend “out” or active atheists, just people who feel indifferent to religion or who have never really thought about it before? Maybe Christians are commanded not to discuss atheism itself with atheists? Perhaps it’s okay to hang out and talk about random day to day stuff, but they shouldn’t converse about possible reasons for nonbelief. (An interesting challenge for evangelizing.)

With regard to “yoked together,” it sounds to me like it refers to being joined in some kind of serious bond of partnership. That could mean being coworkers sharing a project, organizing a club together, being good friends, being married for sure. I think I am yoked to my friends in that I care about their well-being and feel a sense of duty to help them when they need me. I looked in a dictionary or two and this sense is definitely there. Perhaps there is some additional context that would allow us to figure out exactly the instance of yoking Paul had in mind, but I think it’s clear enough from the words. Your objections that “we’re missing a good bit of the context” and he “could be talking about any number of things” apply to a great deal of the Bible, certainly the epistles. Is that stuff to be revered even though we can’t ever really understand it, or do you think maybe it doesn’t belong in the Bible?

On a related note, I’m not particularly deterred by the fact that you can find places in the Bible that say it’s fine to share meals with nonbelievers, even while there are other places in the Bible that say “come out from them and be separate” and “do not take him into your house or welcome him.” There are parts of the Bible that talk about loving your enemies, and parts that talk about utter destruction of one’s enemies. God says in the Old Testament that boys have to be circumcised and that that rule applies forever, but then later Jesus (who is also God?) says that circumcision is unnecessary. Etc. etc. I see this as just another hurdle on the path toward figuring out how to live as the Bible prescribes, maybe an impassable one at that. Rather than say, “The Bible may seem to say X here, but look, it says not-X over here so it’s all right!” my response is more along the lines of: “The Bible says both X and not-X, and it’s impossible to do both at once, so how could this book and its teachings be holy and perfect?”

Speaking of circumcision, it’s interesting to me that you write, “The Psalms are not Leviticus.” Leviticus does have a few choice words about what ought to be done about nonbelievers, but I didn’t mention them because I don’t hear Christians quoting from Leviticus all that often while the sentiments in Psalms are often quoted (even put on ads on the sides of buses, heh). Do you think that the commandments of Leviticus are important, still to be followed? Or do you think that Jesus’s new covenant voids them?

I disagree with your interpretations of these verses – 2 John seems to be talking about false teachers – those who join with Christians and deny Jesus’s divinity, not merely random folks who don’t accept Jesus. Nonbeliever is very different from “deceiver” who has “gone out into the world.”

“Yoked together” is not commonly taken to mean “friends.” Friendship isn’t much of a yoke after all. Paul could be talking about any number of things. It’s hard to say as we’re missing a good bit of the context of this letter. He seems to me to be talking about worshipping – non-believing Jews and Greeks are not really part of your church, even if they were part of your previous circles – or at least, that’s how I’ve read it. He could be talking about marriage, too. 1 Corinthians doesn’t really say it’s ok to marry an unbeliever – it says if you are married to one, don’t divorce on that account. As for the larger point that Christians need to, in many important respects, be “separate” – this is a critical point that a lot of evangelicals have trouble with, as it is certainly unpleasant. I don’t think it entails utterly severing relationships with unbelievers, but I think (at least for the moment) that it entails living lives of radical difference – not being content to simply meld in with the greater world. Some relationships with unbelievers will necessarily be severed – but not all friends or neighbors.

After all, consider 1 Corinthians 10:

If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience’ sake[d]— 29the other man’s conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

Clearly we’re permitted to eat with unbelievers, although that doesn’t mean we can do whatever we want – there are distinctions to be made and shades of gray to walk. Eating meat sacrificed to idols in many contexts is a sin because of what it communicates to others – the call to be separate and distinct doesn’t mean “don’t talk to your atheist friends,” but it may mean “don’t participate with them in a sinful activity just to get along.” I believe that being separate means to live the Christian life even when it’s not comfortable, when it requires you to take a stand or violate a social norm – to not merely blend in with the crowd, to get along merely for the sake of getting along. (Of course, we are to live at peace with our neighbors insofar as we can – but there are higher considerations)

As for Psalm 14. The Psalms are not Leviticus – it is the emotional outpouring of a man (an inspired man, granted, with the nature of that inspiration being in many ways mysterious), but a man with many real and very serious enemies. I can’t deny that it’s foolish to deny God, however, but Psalm 14 is not a mathematical equation stating that all atheists do nothing but vile things. The last couple verses you quote are clearly talking about humanity in general – Paul uses these verses in his discussion in Romans of how we all have sinned and therefore need Christ’s redemption.

So, all that to say, I think it’s fine for a Christian to have nonbelieving friends. It’s unfortunate that a lot of Christians have not been very good at keeping a Godly kind of separateness – an “in but not of” kind of separateness – separation from untruth, immorality, idolatry, greed, injustice, and the like. It’s certainly something I struggle with, as I tend to like to fade into the background and not stand out. But I think we’re called to stand out, even when it’s unpleasant, offensive, or shocking to do so – or even when it results in the breaking apart of friends, neighbors, and family. God must come first.

Here are a few of the points in the Bible that I was referring to:

2 John 1:7-11 – “Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work. ”

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 – “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. Therefore come out from them and be separate,’ says the Lord. ‘Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.’”

Psalm 14 – “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. …”

I can find plenty of places where nonbelievers are described as evil/bad in general, but the first two there are the best examples I know of saying that you shouldn’t associate with them. Of course, 1 Corinthians 7:12-14 says it’s fine to marry nonbelievers, even though it says in 2 Corinthians never to be “yoked together” with them. Paul does preface the lines in 1 Corinthians by saying it’s his command, not God’s. I’m not sure how you personally interpret that — if you think it doesn’t matter because it’s not a divine commandment, or if you think it should be followed because it’s in scripture, even though it appears to directly contradict something else in scripture. Either way… I think my original point about not hanging out with atheists is still pretty clear.

It’s a conflict I’ve been trying to work out – I think that the ethics of a democratic society, or any civil society I suppose, are designed primarily to keep the peace, allow for people to lead pleasant lives. I suspect that “ethics” are actually better at reducing conflict and greasing the wheels of society – but that’s not necessarily what Christ was after, and those values aren’t necessarily the highest values for a Christian. There are truths more powerful than avoiding conflict, a justice more important than getting along and being nice. I suspect, at some level, even those who aren’t religious understand this – in regards to certain issues, at least. There’s still plenty I need to work through on this subject.

By the way, I do not believe the Bible says that friendship with an atheist is forbidden and constitutes an endorsement of a lack of faith. I don’t think it constitutes hypocrisy for them to be friends with you.

So, what’s a good Christian to do — ignore the unsavory parts of the Bible in favor of his/her own ethical judgments, when the two come into conflict … or follow every Biblical teaching to the letter, even if that means being “brutal,” “offensive” or “shocking” just like Jesus?